FAA's proposed flight duty time rule 'directly imposes' responsibility on airlines

And what about personnel responsibility? Existing rules and regulations require crew members to show up fit and able for work. From what I've read so far, this looks like "someone" is trying to require the airlines to pay for commuters accommodations. And the reason for the NPRM, because pilots did not follow the rules. This NPRM should be oriented towards pilots, not the airlines.

These rules came about because big business (the airlines, in this case) didn't follow common sense procedures. I worked for a number of years at a "regional" airline that scheduled "reduced rest" into normal lines of flying. Because transit to/from the airport was considered rest (laughable), the most sleep anyone could hope to get would be about 6 hours. That was after a normal 14 hour duty day, which could be extended to 16, and IF a person could go right to sleep after getting in. Pilots regularly fell asleep in the cockpit but the company didn't care. Their response was always "it's legal, and it's by the contract." (I heard that often at my regional airline, the parent company of the airline that is responsible for this change of policy after their Buffalo, NY crash.) The FAA has always been in bed with the airlines. Hopefully things are about to change (not to penalize the airlines but to ensure safety is a priority over profit). Most passengers are completely unaware when they purchase their $700 tickets on a "legacy" airline that their "regional jets" are being flown by less experienced pilots who are likely not getting proper rest (stand up overnights with less than 5 hours on the ground are common).

If the airline is forced to consider a pilot's time to commute to work they may finally start to give serious consideration to opening, closing, and restaffing domiciles on a whim.
There is no industry in existence that gets away with forcing people to relocate all over the globe without a moments notice or a penny compensation. Its about time airline management begins to compensate for decades of poor decision making that constantly uproots families and relationships.

I hope that the FAA also look at Airline Engineers rest period also .

So commuters are the bad guys? Who/how do we ensure in domicile guys get proper rest?

The answer: professional and personal responsibility, not knee jerk rule changes.

I have a feeling that management will quickly play "cry baby" and say that they can't afford the added cost, then attempt to renegotiate lower wages. Many pilots will likely be forced to fly at minimum credit and at regional FO turboprop salaries this will make it even harder to survive in places like NYC. With this rule making, there should be a professional standard with pay as well. No airline pilot should make less than $40,000 and there needs to be COLA factored in places like NYC and DC.

What an interesting topic! There are two types of commuters: those who are forced to commute, i.e. low pay, base closure, etc... and those who decide to live in foreign countires for tax purposes (don't tell me these don't exist as I flew for 39 years as an In-Glight Service Director) or those who do so for personal reasons. If the commute is one's choice, then these individuals should be responsible for their expenses (accomodations) and legally responsible to have the required crest time before their flight. In addition, would there be exceptions for pilots who deadhead home after their flights?

And while this is all very nice, how about providing similar regulations for flight attendants? They are also responsible for your safety.

As for anonymous who writes that "some pilots look tired and totally unprepared", try sleeping during the day in a stuffy room -windows closed because of the noise- at a hotel close to an airport between night flights! And this after 8 hours between duty periods!

This is a stupid comment. I suppose ramp agents, mechanics and customer service agents should be able to commute into JFK from some other city because it cost too much? Pilots are the highest paid employees of any classification of employees. If the cleaners can figure out how to do it so should pilots.

how is a scheduling system supposed to take all that into account?!?

I know MANY ground workers of all flavors who make more than than most of the first officers at my airline... And they didn't spend tens of thousands to get to their positions. Be careful with generalizations based on what you THINK you know.

Perhaps most of you are ill-informed about the cost increase to the airlines.

The additional cost imposed on the airlines is not to provide commuter crash pads or hotel rooms.

The additional cost is for 1) A five hour initial training course on fatigue. (causes, recognition, symptoms etc.) ie the cost of developing and implementing the course as well as training instructors to teach the course; 2) A 2 hour yearly recurrent course on the same; 3) Trained personnel to recognize and deal with pilots who are reported by other crew members as showing symptoms of fatigue and removing them if necessary; and 4) and by far the most expensive cost; hiring more pilots that will be needed to cover the schedule. With pilots requiring more rest, and airlines will be unable to utilize them in the manner they do today, therefore more will be needed to cover the schedule. Initial fiqures from an FAA source indicate an increase in pilots of anywhere from 13 to 26%.

Having read only two summaries of the NPRM it seems fairly clear that there will be a lot of unintended consequences flowing from these changes. It is refreshing to see that the FAA finally acknowledges the role commuting plays in the fatigue issue. But it is not clear to me how, or who, is going to be responsible for monitoring and enforcing this. Beyond that, the idea of the rest period commencing from the hotel arrival looks to be frougt with problems. What happens if the crew stands waiting for an hour for the courtesy shuttle (been there, done that!)? What if there is an accident on the way to the hotel? Does the rest period start with the time you check in at the front desk? Or after you have something to eat and get to your room??

And the 9 our max duty time for night flying is going to make for a lot of interesting scenarios for U.S.-Europe or Far East U.S. flights.... Ultra long-haul seems pretty challenging under these rules, as well.

Its an easy solution. Copy the centralized basing structure of the mainline carriers where you have a large variety of scheduled pairings. This will offer a greater variety of show times and more efficient schedules that will accommodate both the crew member that lives in domicile and the commuter. The other solution is to give the pilot a positive space ticket to commute to work. This will cut down on the stress of commuting immensely especially now that the load factors are so high. I know, what about the lost $$$ from the paying passenger. The rules can be written to minimize the effect of this in through various manners. Just a thought but this rule change is needed.

Long overdue! The United States has been one of the only modern industralized countries to postpone these much needed changes for political reasons. Shameful that not only aircrew but the travelling public have been held hostage to satisfy the political agenda set by those who have disregarded the science for so long. When these rules were made decades ago there were no flights that went non-stop to Asia from the US. I'll believe it when I see it. Remember what happened the last time! Right before the change was to come out -- the political forces once again continued the "status quo."

Why do airline employees think they have a right to commute to work from a different city that requires them to fly to get to work? Commuting has come about because pilots can - they are able to fly for free. What other industry provides the benefit of living in one city and working in another? Yes bases open and close based on management decisions that are intended to be the best for the company, but don't other industries open, close and move offices, branches, factories, or business units? The employees of such companies either decide to move where their new position is located if they are offered one, or they get another job doing something else. I know of a few people who fly to another city each week and work then fly home, but it comes out of their pocket, and they pay for an apartment so they can sleep. Pilots need to treat their career just like any other professional (I believe most of them do), and when it is time to work they need to be well rested and prepared. None of these rules are supported by evidence that shows the rules will reduce fatigue. I suppose the FAA does not want US carriers to compete in international markets...

KWSF "I suppose the FAA does not want US carriers to compete in international markets..." International Markets adopted these rules quite a long time ago and are doing just fine with them.

About the profits of US Air Carriers: Why is it that the International Airlines pay substantially more to their employees (50%-100% more), have more restrictive work rules, and still post substantial profits. The answer? International Carriers have FAR less Management structures and teams.

US Carriers have more Mid-Upper Management than you can dream up; all of which require higher pay, bonus, and incentives to be there. Why is it that a US Carrier charges more for the flight of the same duration, pays far less to labour, and then shows up in the red? Golden Parachutes and Big Bonuses.

Just a thought on one aspect of cost; do the pilots really need a class to learn when their fatigued?

Pilots should go to 8 hour work days just like the rest of the world. It would allow jobless pilots to get a job and the pilots would be rested and happy.

You need to pick up and move to the base if you want to work there.

since I was recalled in apr of 08 I have been based in 5 different domicles (clt twice and none of them by choice) . Am I supposed to move every time I get forced into another base?

Well how would you deal with Airlines moving a pilot from base to base without regard to the pilots travel requirements? I have commuted for years only because I lost my domicile because of efficiencies. I have remained responsible to show up rested at the expense of my family, something you don't seem to grasp! The airlines have held me responsible for everything and got away with duties you would not want a pilot at the controls after or during. Close the loop holes

To the annonymous mgmt types! In the last dozen years I have seen the FTL's become the "target and not the limitations" by unscrupulous corporate management whose only raison'd'etre is to pad the bottom line using the axiom "accidents are collateral damage as a result of risk management and mitigation." Unless you are willing to see your family as collateral damage do not blame the pilots for what they have become as a result of this practice.
Trying to make a difference.

Follow your jobs! What's the big deal? Why commute? Excuses about family time are inexcusable. US Army soldiers in Afghanistan do not get to see their families until their tour of duty is over. They know what they signed up for. If your base moves, move!

Rest times need to change. As pilots we need to take responsibility and use it to rest and be fit for work. Too many overweight, out of shape pilots and yes it affects your sleeping habits. The few pilots I know with great finances, we make money in other investmests and fly the minimal line. Let's be realistic, you will never be wealthy fly airplanes.

There are so many off topic and uneducated opinions on this site that it's challenging to begin. In my first year as an airline pilot I was displaced three times before being furloughed. To follow the guidance of some on this blog I would have moved from my home to Chicago, then two months later to NY, then 4 months later I would have been out of a job for a year. Explain to me how this is sound personal financial judgement.
Ground employees do not transfer base. They apply for jobs in their domicile and work from their current home. They make it work without uprooting.
Wages - starting pay is under $20,000 a year for that regional co-pilot. It took 4 years to get the credentials to get the job.
Take another job if you don't like it. While I personally agree with the philosophy it has a flawed application in this industry. Your experience is non transferrable. If I were in sales, management, or service my network and accomplishments allow me to negotiate for benefits and salary at a new employer. At an airline you could be working for Braniff one day as a dream job and the next day be applying for a co-pilot job at $20,000/year. Want to go to a major airline? Take a 66% paycut first year.
Commuters are the problem. I live in base and regularly get scheduled 8 hours of rest. This starts 15 minutes after the parking brake is set and stops 45 minutes before the parking brake is released the next day. In that "8 hours" I'm to get out of the airport, board an airport shuttle, eat, get unpacked, sleep, wake, repack, eat, commute to airport. Explain to me how that allows for a reasonable time to rest. I applaud the new rules.
Yes, they will result in increased costs for the airline. Yes, they result in ticket price increase. Yes, my income might go down. Yes, it will be abused and hard to track. All of these arguments are immaterial. It will result in safer operation of the aircrafts my family will use.

PS - commuting to work is not free. It is unfortunate that the misconception exists. It costs both time and yes, money. "I wish I made as much money as the world believes" is a constant pilot thought.