Investigators cite cockpit smoke in UPS 747-400F crash in Dubai

I wonder whether the -400 had smoke detectors or heat detectors installed. Some years ago there was research and discusions about the FAA mandating the much earlier heat detector systems. A heat detector sensor was to be located over every container position, which would recognize heat inside the top of the container. The smoke dectector system detects smoke only after it exits the container and enters the sniffer.

No need to investigate this accident. Anonymous already has it figured out.

This a pilot's worst nightmare... dense smoke obscuring both outside and instrument panel visibility. Even without the smoke, flying with O2 masks and smoke goggles in the simulator is difficult. For those of us who wear bifocals even worse. Time to mandate smoke hoods that seal to the forward windshield and panel and make the task possible no matter how dense the smoke.

Why won't airlines or cargo carriers equip aircraft with EVAS? www.evasworldwide.com Simple solution, low cost, and it works to assure vision in dense smoke. Media should pick up on this.

No the B-747-400 does not require a Flight Engineer. It is an all pilot aircraft with augmented crews depending on the flight time. In this case only 2 pilots were required on the leg from Dubai to Cologne.

My guess is there was some flamable contents in a container that shifted on rotationand ignited. Restricted items rules are not always followed ie: Value Jet in the FL. everglades. This much dense smoke this fast is the key to my theory. Bottom line I agree lets see what the investigation finds

My prayers are with the families! It is to bad they were not lower on final approach. Reading the information they were still at 8500 feet 24 mm (13) miles from the end of the runway. Had they been below the glide slope they could possibility of captured and gotten down.

Two things: ONE YES IT HAS SMOKE DETECTORS!
TWO, YOU'RE ASSUMING THE FIRE WAS IN THE CARGO HOLD. ONE MORE AND YOUR OUT!

You wanna bees should just stop the ridiculous speculation. A 4 engine Boeing powered by 4 GE's is a great aircraft, but smoke and fire in the cockpit is a killer. Period. Remember Valuejet. Now go back to your coffee and read rather than make uninformed posts to boost your egos!
Nothing personal.

I can't read any more of this baloney.

First of all, my deepest condolences to the families of the crew and to the entire UPS family.
I agree with TJ - STOP the speculation, though it is human nature do so, lets let the investigation proceed and see what really happened on this flight.

If there was a required Flight Engineer aboard, good chance this would of saved the aircraft and pilots.

Long retired DC-8 Captain

Sounds like something in the cockpit fried. Since they overshot the field the GSI (glide slope indicator) probably wasn't working or possibly they couldn't deploy the flaps and slow down? We might never know. RIP

The crew could not see the panel to program the autopilot in the dense smoke. Also an aircraft will not be seen on radar at low altitudes. Other news reports indicate crew reported dense smoke and was not even able to see enough to change radio frequencies. Fire could be from many different things. The smoke could have come from the aircraft itself or from the cargo on board. A good lesson on how fast fires progress in an aircraft.

Valuejet was carrying Lithium Polymer batteries. UPS was carrying Toys and computer equipment from Hing Kong. Many of those toys may have contained lithium polymer batteries. Just a thought.

All I want to say is that I live in Silicon Oasis, where they almost landed (about 150ft above us before crashing). Regardless of the outcome, I along with other Emirates families believe these two men are Heroes! They avoided the compound and also tipped their wing to miss an apartment building before crossing the highway and crashing. Many more lives could have been lost, and I will be forever grateful that these two pilots saved us!

Sorry, not a heavy pilot, nor ever will be. I know that this might have exacerbated (sp.?) the situation, but what about slowing her up to say 180 knots and opening those windows? No, not so they could stick their heads out, but wouldn't that at least have given them a chance of visibility as the smoke was sucked out (assuming it was coming from the panel)? There has to be an industry-wide solution to this type of emergency that has to be adopted. Not just a few carriers.

No they don't. There is a hatch for emergency egress at the top of the cockpit, just behind the capt.

SMOKE HOODS: aka PBE (protective breathing equipment) are of two types, active and passive carbon dioxide absorbers. The active ones last about 12 minutes regardless of activity. The passive ones can last up to an hour when sedentary and 12-15 minutes under heavy work load. - Sold by Essex PB&R, located in St.Louis

EVAS: acronym for Emergency Vision Assurance System. Understand that there are STC''s for a lot of different aircraft types. I have seen a demonstration in a simulator with smoke so thick you could not see the hand in front of your face, yet you could see outside, read the instruments, checklist, etc. It was very impressive. The product is manufactured by Vision Safe Corp. I was informed earlier this year that all orders should be placed directly with the factory (visionsafe.com), and not through EVAS Worldwide.

Also, a flight engineer wouldn't have made any difference. They have computers to do this function that perform better than people do. Anytime there is something wrong with some significance, a master caution lights come on alerting the pilots of a problem. I'm sure these pilots had a fire spreading quickly from who knows where which left them unable to see inside the flight deck. It's very unfortunate these accidents happen. RIP

Please, stop the rhetoric. The 747 doesn't have a FE, because it doesn't need one - anyone SEEN A COMPUTER? There simply would have been 3 fatalities! Value Jet went into the Everglades because they were carrying OXYGEN GENERATORS not friggin lithium batteries for crying out loud. If you don't know what the heck you are talking about talk to yourself!
Now HIGH pressure turbine!

Terrible tragedy. Still can't believe that such a great aircraft with one of the best trained and skilled crews can come out of the sky like this. UPS is known for hiring the "cream" so it must have been something that was out of the crew's control. Reminds me of the MD11 at Halifax...Truly every pilot's nightmare scenario.

Check out EVAS - Emergency Vision Assurance System.
http://www.evasworldwide.com/

- Fed Ex uses it!!

Saw the UPS team here in a Dubai hotel. They looked stressed (understandable). From a family point of view, I was able to let them know that we as a community here in Silicon Oasis will be forever grateful to the pilots for not crash landing here. Lets hope they collectively can put the pieces together and avoid another disaster like this one.

Dear Anonymous. I won't speculate on the cause of the crash (I'll let that to people who actually know what they're talking about) but Valuejet was not carrying Lithium Polymer batteries...it was carrying oxygen generators. I don't even think lithium polymer batteries were invented in 1996. Thoughts and prayers to the UPS crew's families.

Get your facts straight:
The valuejet incident was caused by expired chemical oxygen generators, which are used in passenger service units on board of aircraft, that were being transported as COMAT (COMpany MATerial).
They were declared empty, when in fact they were still operative. In addition, incorrect isolation of the firing pins made activation of the generator(s) possible. The result of releasing oxygen under heat build-up in a closed compartment is too well known ...

In general I would like to say that speculating about the causes of an aviation incident is a waste of time in the most cases, unless you have direct access to DFDR, CVR, and various other information.
However keep in mind that the final reports given by pertinent investigation teams will more than often leave your hunger for the (complete) truth unsatisfied.
Don't forget that there are factors like politics, insurances, and responsibilities from manufacturers, maintenance, operators, ATC, airports, aviation authorities, etc. that play into the final result of an investigation.
The reports and findings, which are made public and are released to the media not always reflect the (entire) truth of what happened.
Usually the cheapest way to go for everybody involved in the investigation is "human error".
Which by coincidence also happens to be what best sells to the public. Everybody understands, if you say the pilot screwed up.