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Losing its Luster
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AS THE US GOVERNMENT CONSIDERS ADOPTING NEW pilot certification regulations in the aftermath of last year’s tragic Colgan Air Q400 crash that was blamed on pilot error, professionals involved in training future first officers and captains are asking a deeper question: Why would someone want to become an airline pilot in the US in 2010?
Navigating an intensive flight training program or attending a university with a professional pilot curriculum often means spending/accumulating debt of well over $50,000. “The military is not the presence it used to be” in producing commercial pilots, Embry-Riddle University Aeronautical Science Dept. Chair Dan Macchiarella tells ATW.He estimates that 55% of new commercial pilots come from four-year college programs while civilian flight schools produce most of the rest.
There are the old romantic notions associated with piloting a commercial jet through the great blue yonder, and flight deck crew at major US airlines are generally well compensated. Even as financially strapped US carriers have won concessions from pilot unions, the Air Line Pilots Assn. says the average ALPA captain at a US legacy airline is 52 and earns about $155,000 annually after 21 years of service while an average first officer is 45 with 12 years of service and makes about $105,000.
But US legacy passenger airlines haven’t hired pilots in about a decade; American Airlines, for example, employs more pilots over the age of 60 than under 40. So an aspiring pilot in America today must decide to invest the time and money with the hope that, someday, airline hiring will begin again, or seek employment with fringe players or freight/express operators. But even UPS Airlines, one of the most lucrative cargo carriers, has warned that it may be forced to furlough about 300 pilots this year.
“The process [of becoming a commercial airline pilot] is somewhat of a real gauntlet,” Jeppesen Senior Manger-Training Solutions David Wright tells this magazine. “To learn to fly, you’ve got to have the time, you’ve got to have the money and you’ve got to have the motivation.” Once a young pilot has completed training successfully, he or she then must look to regional airlines, which now operate more than 50% of US domestic flights, for a job (see related article, p. 34).
“You’re looking at low pay and a lifestyle dictated by that pay level,” Wright says. But as with many professions, airline pilots pay their dues and then get a big payoff down the line, right? Maybe in the past, but any pilot who has entered the profession in the US in the last decade may wonder whether the dues-paying will be worth it. “This industry is becoming known for rabidly eating its young,” he laments. “The promise of a sustainable, smooth career is probably at its lowest ever in the pilot profession.” According to ALPA, an average first officer at a US regional with one year of service earns only around $20,567. A ten-year regional captain can expect to earn $70,000.
Even new pilots who graduate from four-year universities with highly regarded training curricula can’t expect well-paying jobs. “There’s a lot of difficulty in moving from being a poor college student to being a poor regional airline pilot,” Macchiarella says.
University of North Dakota School of Aerospace Sciences Chair Kent Lovelace tells ATW,“I just had a student [pilot] in my office yesterday and I asked him what he wanted to do after graduation. And he said, ‘I’m not going to the airlines.’ He explained that he had a good friend who graduated [a couple of years] earlier, who’s at such-and-such regional airline and actually seeing job regression while earning $24,000 a year. Well, you can’t pay back your loans, can’t cover your debt at that salary.”
He continues, “There’s a growing sentiment that the payoff just isn’t there. When a [prospective pilot] asks ‘Can I afford this?’ the answer more and more is ‘No.’ . . . Those that want to fly professionally increasingly want to do so in a corporate setting or a general aviation setting. The image of the airline pilot is injured. It’s not looked upon like it used to be at all.”
Pilot Error
The image was not helped by the conclusions reached by the US National Transportation Safety Board in its investigation of the Colgan crash outside Buffalo that killed 50. The board identified pilot error as the cause, citing the captain’s inappropriate response to a stall warning. Colgan maintained that both pilots received thorough training in handling a stall situation and that it “cannot speculate on why they did not use their training” the night of the crash.
An issue that received a great deal of attention during Congressional hearings that followed the crash was whether the certification requirements for Part 121 first officers are sufficient. FAA’s Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on pilot certification requirements issued earlier this year noted that the Colgan crash “focused attention on whether a commercially rated copilot in Part 121 operations receives adequate training.”
Among questions raised in the ANPRM was whether all Part 121 pilots should hold an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, which requires that a pilot be at least 23 years old, pass a test demonstrating knowledge of the aircraft category and class he or she will be operating and have accumulated a minimum of 1,500 flight hr. First officers currently must have only an instrument rating and commercial pilot certificate requiring just 250 hr.
The 24-year-old first officer in the doomed Q400 had a commercial pilot certificate but not an ATP. According to NTSB, she was hired by Colgan in January 2008 with 1,470 total flight hr. but only “6 hours of actual instrument training . . . The first officer reported no experience with turbine-powered airplanes on her resume and employment application.” By the time of the crash, she had accumulated 2,244 hr. of total flying time, including 774 hr. in turbine aircraft and on the Q400. She reportedly was earning $22,000 per year and lived with her parents in Washington State to save money, commuting across the country to her crew base in Newark.
Both the House of Representatives and Senate have passed legislation that would require all Part 121 pilots to possess an ATP license, meaning it is very possible it will soon be mandated by law that even a regional airline FO will have to possess one.
‘Archaic Regulations’
ALPA Human Factors and Training Group Chair Chuck Hogeman notes that US regulations governing pilot certification were developed in a completely different era. “We would like to see some changes in the regulations because we don’t believe the regulations have kept pace,” he tells ATW.“They were crafted when we had an ample supply of pilots and [airlines generally were operating] three-pilot airplanes. You were able to move rather gradually [as an up-and-coming pilot] before taking control of an airplane.”
It is also the case that the regulations were devised when the vast majority of US commercial pilots were former military pilots who joined airlines with thorough flight training that had been paid for by the armed forces. “Back in the ’60s and ’70s, you probably had 80% of the [airline] pilots coming from the military,” Lovelace says. “By the late 1980s, that had turned around completely.” Now former military pilots are believed to comprise no more than 10%-15% of the US airline pilot workforce.
A UND study of hiring practices at the six largest US regional carriers from 2005-2009 found that only 3% of new hires came from the military. “The military a few years ago really started to up the bonuses [for pilots to remain in the services] as well as upping the initial commitments required,” Lovelace notes. “Pay levels [for military pilots] have increased whereas airline pay has not gone up for years.”
Speaking at the FAA Aviation Forecast Conference in March, Allied Pilots Assn. Government Affairs Chairman Robert Coffman remembered that when he was hired by American Airlines in the 1970s, “for a couple of years we sat sideways [as a flight engineer in a jump seat] and watched how a captain and first officer operated an aircraft.” This allowed pilots to serve a de facto “apprenticeship” in a cockpit during all types of situations before becoming a first officer, he said.
But the three-man cockpit began disappearing with the introduction of the DC-9 in the late 1960s as increased automation supplanted the role of the flight engineer, although not without controversy. Today’s new pilots generally start as FOs with regional carriers. An ALPA white paper issued last year stated, “Today’s archaic regulations allow airlines to hire low-experience pilots into the right seat of high-speed, complex, swept-wing jet aircraft in what amounts to on-the-job training with paying passengers on board . . . Not surprisingly, these pilots, who perform as well as their experience, knowledge and skills will permit, often exhibit deficiencies . . . [that] ultimately impact safety.”
Coffman commented that many first officers hired by regionals “haven’t been flying an aircraft long enough to do something to scare yourself.” He said requiring that all commercial airline pilots have an ATP would force them to gain valuable “seasoning” before getting access to a cockpit with passengers’ lives at stake.
Hogeman says the “$64 million question” in the debate over pilot certification is how much weight to give flight time. Measuring a pilot’s proficiency by the hours he or she has accumulated in a cockpit is “a feeble system at best,” he states. Wright says the notion that accumulating flying time makes someone a better pilot is a myth. “Statistically, there is no direct correlation between flight time and skills. How was a cadet trained, where did he get his experience? That’s much more important.”
Quantity vs. Quality
In fact, throughout much of the world accumulation of significant flight time is not considered an essential element of preparing a pilot for commercial service, with no apparent effect on safety. Lacking the stream of highly experienced military pilots once common in the US, major carriers in other parts of the world long have operated ab initio programs that emphasize quality rather than quantity of training. Indeed, the ICAO Multi-Crew Pilot License standard, which calls for just 240 hr. of flying time, is premised on the notion that the quality of training is far more important than the number of hours accumulated (ATW,March 2008, p. 44). The US “hasn’t embraced” MPL training, Macchiarella says.
Airlines conducting ab initio training, Emirates and Lufthansa prominently among them, carefully screen candidates with no flying experience whatsoever. Those who make the cut are put through training that is mostly or entirely paid for by the airline. Often, the result is pilots ascending to the right seat of a commercial jet with around 250-300 hr. of flight time.
“Emirates selects college graduates who want to be a pilot and takes them from zero training all the way through,” Wright explains. “That model of training is gaining a lot of traction.” The ab initio programs “fly in the face” of the notion that hours are what counts, he says. Emirates said 35 pilots graduated from its National Cadet Pilot Program last year. It spends AED1.2 million ($326,710) on each graduating pilot. Over the last five years it has spent a total of AED100 million ($27.2 million) on the program.
Based on recent testimony before Congress by FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, himself a former airline pilot, it is not certain the agency will issue a certification rule that places a primary emphasis on flying hr.—though Congress could dictate that it set an hr. requirement. “I know some people are suggesting that simply increasing the minimum number of hours required for a pilot to fly in commercial aviation is appropriate,” Babbitt told lawmakers. “I do not believe that simply raising quantity . . . without regard to the quality and nature of that time and experience is an appropriate method by which to improve a pilot’s proficiency in commercial operations.”
He said FAA is leaning toward developing a regulation that is more “targeted,” explaining, “A newly certificated commercial pilot might be limited to certain activities until he or she could accumulate the type of experience deemed potentially necessary to serve as a first officer for an air carrier. There is a difference between knowing a pilot has been exposed to all critical situations during training versus assuming that simply flying more hours automatically provides that exposure.”
He pointed out that in the US military it is possible for pilots with fewer than 200 hr. of flight time to be landing planes “on an aircraft carrier.” What matters for the military is not hours flown but a rigorous training program that exposes future fighter pilots to all types of scenarios, he said.
“An ATP does not require an extensive amount of training,” Lovelace says. “It’s based on hours in the logbook. It doesn’t cover a lot of varied topics or skill sets.” He notes that the captain in the Colgan accident had an ATP (he had more than 3,300 hr. of total flying time) but was found by NTSB to have made a number of key mistakes on the night of the crash and to have had five “unsatisfactory” check rides throughout his career.
Higher Standards
Pilot education “should be based on competencies as opposed to hours,” Macchiarella agrees. He adds, “We believe that hours and competencies are not necessarily correlated. Studies show sufficiently higher success rates for [pilot] students that graduate with a full college education.” He likens the current debate over pilot training to questions surrounding medical doctors’ qualifications in early 20th century North America that led to the 1910 publication of the influential Flexner Report, which exposed wide variations in the quality of medical schools and a lack of uniform standards for becoming a doctor.
Medical doctors in the US and Canada became much more professionalized in the aftermath of the Flexner Report,he notes, adding that prospective pilots should have to “pass a set of boards” demonstrating they have proficiencies “equivalent” to those graduating with degrees from universities such as Embry-Riddle that require graduates “to demonstrate competencies in multiple areas . . . The pilot profession is under scrutiny now and we need to become more professional.”
One undeniable consequence of the new standards ushered in by the Flexner Report was that it became far more expensive and time-consuming to become a doctor, narrowing the field of prospective physicians. Lovelace led a comprehensive UND study that found US airlines could face a serious pilot shortfall in the years ahead as older pilots retire, traffic finally starts to grow again and the number of young people willing and able to become airline pilots diminishes.
The US airline industry “is living in the past,” he says. “The days of having an unlimited supply of young people having an interest in becoming a professional pilot with an airline are coming to an end.” Initially there will be a “pent-up supply” of new pilots coming from regionals when US majors start hiring again, “but they’ll pass through that quickly and will find that there aren’t enough qualified people coming up to serve the industry’s needs. Most people in the industry won’t believe that could happen because it hasn’t happened before. It may come down to being forced to provide sponsorship for [training pilots] or finding a way to help pilots pay off their debt. The truth is that most airlines aren’t concerned about it because they’ve never had to be concerned about it before.”
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Discuss this article 47
Does ATWOnline have any sort
By AnonymousDoes ATWOnline have any sort of chart that lists airlines in order of pilot pay? After reading the link in the first comment to the old Johnny Carson joke, I'm wondering who the airline is today that pays the most to their pilots. That - and who pays the least. Any information on this?
Airlinepilotcentral.com has
By AnonymousAirlinepilotcentral.com has pay scales available for Cargo, Regional, Flag and Domestic carriers. Fedex and Southwest pay the most, Great Lakes is the worst, with FO's making under 14,000 a year.
O and remember, Pilots
By AnonymousO and remember, Pilots typically are paid for 80 hours a month... and are away from home at least 300 hours a month, twice that for a commuter. So example... Great Lakes FO makes 16/hr. 16 x 80 = 1280 pretax. 1280 x 12 = 15,360/yr PRETAX!
Very well written article.
By AnonymousVery well written article. If you want to read a website that digs a little deeper into this topic, check out www.thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com
I think it will be years, though, before any sort of pilot shortage materializes- if at all. And if it does materialize, the regional airline industry and major airline industry, through their respective congressional mouthpieces will be crying to the government how, "no one wants to be an airline pilot anymore!" Of course, the airlines will have no one to blame except themselves if this problem manifests itself. Expecting young pilots to spend tens of thousands dollars on a 4 year degree then tens of thousands more for flight training and then offering entry level wages that would make a McDonald's manager blush is inane.
The job market (as it usually
By AnonymousThe job market (as it usually does) is taking a long time to l respond to the wage stagnation for pilots but it will come and in the end the airlines will be spending far more than they saved. The executives of the future will have to deal with the sins of the execs that took the easy way out with short term vision.
If there is a shortage in the
By AnonymousIf there is a shortage in the (distant) future, I think it will result in airlners going to single pilot ops, with the dispatcher trained in landing the plane remotely in case the pilot keels over... the technology is already here (drones). I'm not saying this will happen tomorrow, but, say, 2025, which in technology is light years away... 15 years ago we barely had GPS.
Actually dispatch will
By AnonymousActually dispatch will routinely control the flight and the single pilot on board will be there to crosscheck the flight and for emergencies (loss of comm).
I don't get it. Yes the FO on
By AnonymousI don't get it. Yes the FO on Colgan wasn't helping anything. And this article spent a lot of time about how we need tougher standards for new FO's.
But a 3300 hour pilot messed up the most basic thing. The thing that is drilled into you from your first week flying a plane. Stall recovery.
Requiring FOs to have ATPS isn't going to fix 3300 hour captains that can't recover from a stall.
What needs to be fixed is if you bust five checkrides. That is where the focus needs to be.
Pilot's are tested with real world scenarios. It is called recurrent. Captains have the pleasure twice a year FO's once a year.
One of the major problems
By AnonymousOne of the major problems encountered throughout the previous decade in the pilot labor market has been the issue of supply and demand. Initially, the market was somewhat balanced until the rapid growth of the regional carriers.
As the supply of experienced pilot (as measured strictly by hours) became depleted (partially because of absurdly low pay) the experience required by regionals was slashed. This basically shifted the supply curve, enabling more labor output for the same price.
Sure, safety was probably sacrificed (e.g.: Colgan 3047) but managements primary goal was always short term market performance.
As the market for flying rebounds (moving the demand curve) the supply of pilots due to retirements, new regulations and dwindling student starts should decline. This will enable professional pilots to compete for jobs in a safer, more labor friendly, marketplace.
Amazing! This article really
By MarshalllpAmazing! This article really touches what the issue on pilot training is! I really enjoyed the Quantity vs Quality section. Indeed, the requirement for 1,500 total time before joining the regional airlines is absurd. Gosh, I can't imagine how many years of being a CFI it will take to build that amount of flight time. However I do feel that it will be in the advantage for US pilots to be required to have passed the ATP written exam before joining the regionals. This could potentially bring us close to the same knowledge and skill levels of JAA or other ICAO pilots that possess their "Frozen ATPL" before joining the airlines where they progressively build their flight time toward the !,500 total time target. Therefore, since the U.S tend to produce more pilots from college programs instead of airlines ab initio cadet programs, it would probably be a good idea for four-year universities to include ATP courses in their curricula and enforce their satisfactory completions as a requirement to graduate . On the other hand, I love what Emirates, Air France, Cathay Pacific etc do with their ab initio cadet pilot programs but I would like the idea of having a college degree on top of all that intensive and expensive training. When I look at it, if those foreigners are able to fly Airbus A320/330/340 or Boeing B737 right after completion of pilot training with 250-300 total time, I think we can do the same here in the U.S. I don't think JAA or other ICAO pilots are better than FAA pilots. Like it was well said in the article, we in the U.S. need to be willing to invest more resources in the quality of our pilot training programs and stop speculating on whether or not 1500 total time we'll be what it takes to safely fly a ridiculous CRJ-200 or Dash Q400 after college graduation! This is so ridiculous! Do you fellow pilots think the management at Cathay Pacific is stupid to allow its cadets to fly B747 and other wide-body airliners with low flight time? NOT AT ALL! Instead they understood long time ago that low or high time is not what they necessarily need, but instead they need to focus on the substance of the training they offer. And this is definitely a reason why Cathay Pacific and its competitors like Emirates, Etihad etc are the top airlines in the world besides the fact that they have considerable financial means. So is the solution to our issue here in the U.S would be for regional and legacy air carriers to conduct ab initio cadet pilot programs in parallel to college programs? Or should the U.S. air carriers should find some sort of financial agreements with universities to help student pilots finance their training while providing pilot training with a significance substance? I guess the lawmakers should find out and let me know, since they seem to know what is best for us pilots! And talking about ab initio cadet programs, how many airlines in the U.S will be willing to spend $327,000 to train each pilot when they don't know how they'll pay their Ramp agents the next month? Seriously the industry is really messed up here, but I am a man of faith and I believe that there are some men and women out there with good intentions that will find the solutions to our problems. Hopefully, the profession of Airline pilot will be as glamorous and well appreciated as it was once upon a time!
Marshalllp
The Pride of Cameroon
I've been a pilot at a large
By AnonymousI've been a pilot at a large airline for nearly 5 years now. Last year, I made $38K. This industry sucks. I wish I had a way out. For all of you who are looking to become pilots, do something else. I would NEVER recommend flying to my sons. Too much heartache, and there's no pay in it anymore. We aren't the hi-paid premadonna's that the public thinks. I typically work 10-12 hour days (but you're only paid for 4-6 hours of it), away from home upto 20 nights a month, and we're losing our health bene's. This from a company that has 10,000 employees. TFAYD
Whenever the quantity vs.
By AnonymousWhenever the quantity vs. quality of flight time argument comes up, invariably experts always point to how the military is able to move someone with no previous experience into a single seat fighter or multi-engine heavy in approximately X-hundred hours. A few key points are seldom mentioned however: 1) 'Applicants' are rigorously screened, 2) X-hundred hours occurs over the course of an intense 18-24 months of the best training money can buy, and 3) those who fail to demonstrate the required rate of progression are summarily shown the door, never to be invited back.
Real nice job. Very usefull
By MARCIAL DEL BUSTOReal nice job. Very usefull and friendly. Congratulations
Interesting and well written
By Airline CaptainInteresting and well written article. However, the article makes the supposition that safety has been compromised. A look at accident data over the past 30 years will show a steady decrease in accidents and fatalities - the safest period in airline history.
Speaking to a supposedly weak training system in the US, as a former regional airline pilot, I can attest that regional airline training is highly rigorous and does probably as good or better job than any ab-initio program could. Having said that, I'm all for an ATP as min requirement for Part 121 employment.
This article infers that the system is broken and needs to be fixed. From the training perspective, I completely disagree. From the professional perspective, I categorically agree that salary and working conditions need a huge overhaul, as these two do affect safety both directly and indirectly.
(By the way, US airlines have been training low time airline pilots for over 50 years. A friend who retired from Delta as an L-1011 captain about 15 years ago told me he was hired by Delta with about 500 hours of Piper Cub time.)
David Wright says there is
By CaptainDavid Wright says there is "statistically no correlation between flight time and flying skills". We all know about "statistics" Mr. Wright.
It's significantly different once you get out of the training environment and into a 24/7/365 real world airline operation. Iv'e been with a legacy carrier for over twenty five years, with commuter, corporate and cargo experience prior to that and having graduated from ERAU. I spent over thirteen years trying to make a living flying before getting to the "big time". Eighteen years as a captain and I can say that experience equates directly to flight time and overall safety. There's a lot to be said for having "been there and done that".Yes, flying skills vary greatly even among those with thousands of hours but there is still no substitute for experience. What we have now is mostly young people straight out of a flying school being hired into the right seat of a regional jet with little real experience in all weather operations. Most of these pilots still think that they will move up to a major airline someday. The fact is that many of those major airline jobs are gone, not likely to return. In large part because they were willing to work for poverty level wages. I don't blame them. If I had been offered that job as a young person I would have done the same thing. Everyone has to start somewhere but the right seat of an airliner shouldn't be that place.
The macro problem is that the industry and our government want world class airline operations with cheap ticket prices on a shoe string budget. Since congress "deregulated" the industry in the '70s the pay and benefits of the piloting profession have been under attack. With the outsourcing of many jobs to the "regionals", and a commensurate reduction in flying at the majors, the overall desireability of the profession has suffered. Anyone who has done the job for a while can tell you that it never was the romanticized adventure alluded to in the article. It's a long hard grind.
Airline managements will continue to exploit the young pilot's hopes for the future. The thing to remember is that if there are no qualified pilots they will just hire anyone willing to do the job. You do the math.
There is an old saying that a
By AnonymousThere is an old saying that a superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgment so as not to have to use his superior skill.
There is another old saying that good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment.
Superior judgment is what pilots flying airliners need; it's what keeps them and their passengers alive when the fit hits the shan. No collegiate aviation course can impart the sort of aeronautical judgment that 1500 hours of actual flying experience will.
As a regional pilot it also
By microclimatesAs a regional pilot it also irks me that all this focus is put on the regional industry, while nobody mentions the majors accidents these past few years...
CO in Denver: the 737 departed the runway at high speed because of the pilots inadequately dealing with the crosswinds on takeoff. Luckily, nobody was seriously injured, but that was just dumb luck. This could have been as bad (or worse, by the body count) than the LEX accident a few years ago. Same goes for the AA 737 that broke up on landing in Puerto Rico this past winter. Both of these incidents were the result of pilot error.
Also, I am skeptical of the stats whereby regionals are riskier than majors: we all know that the critical fases of flight are TO and landing, so I wonder what would happen to the stats if they were corrected by cycles, considering how many more cycles the average regional crews go through, in a day, compared to majors...
From reading the article and
By SWFrom reading the article and the comments, it sounds like...
Quality of the Training.
Knowledge and skill gained by the Quantity of the real world, flying the line experiences.
Competency of the employee.
Safety culture nurtured by the employer.
And whether anyone is willing to pay for all that.
Both major and regional
By MajorAirlinePilotBoth major and regional airlines will continue to base employment standards on economics. Applicants will do the same. The foreseeable future will be low pay attracting low quality. Being able to spell and reference accurate facts will be the first indication.
But, can regulation fix the problem? Only so far as the regulators can resist the political lobbying by the industry to lower standards.
The airlines will need to man cockpits. How do we expect them to be able to afford to train pilots with no experience when they can't pay the pilots they have now?
I was hired by a cargo
By William DueI was hired by a cargo airline at the age of 51. By that time I had accumulated about 8,000 hours in a variety of aircraft and had an ATP. The Captain's with whom I flew were well qualified in the aircraft, but many of them lacked inter-personal skills. With a few exceptions, most of them would not share their wealth of knowledge in the aircraft, but rather exhibited an air of superiority over the right seaters. One Captain would not speak to the first officer unless spoken to first. Whenever possible I tried to get paired with Captains who showed respect for the other pilot, and were known to share their wealth of knowledge. By being selective I was mostly satisfied by my progress. Despite a great deal of time away from home, it made the time go by in a pleasant manner. For example, I had one captain that spoke to me on how he prepared for his semi-annual checkride. I had another captain who exemplied the personification of how a captain should interact with the other crewmembers. She was great! She motivated her crew to higher skill levels. Yes, she had failed her checkride for upgrade to Captain the first time, but she returned with a vengeance to dazzle the skeptics. She earned the respect of all those she touched on a daily basis, and no one doubted her competency. Folks, sitting in the right seat should be a learning experience. Both seats should be constantly striving to be better pilots. Both pilots should be striving to dazzle the trainers at recurrency. Trainers at recurrency should be striving to identify the weak points. Those that continue to exhibited weakness should be eliminated. In the aviation industry we are our own worst enemies.
Ab Initio programs are NOT
By AnonymousAb Initio programs are NOT the safe way to go. I was a CFI for one of these "wonderful European programs" that sent cadets to the right seat of a Major European Airline upon graduation with 250 ish hours. These students should not be flying paying passengers so quickly. The only reason nobody notices is that the poor Captains have to drag their relatively ignorant FO's around and keep the ship out of the dirt.
I also would administer ATP training to students with 1500+ hours, and hundreds of hours of cross-country time. These pilots were much more aware and cognizant of how to operate in the IFR environment. Especially the CFII's who were a dream to train. In my opinion, that is the direction things should go.
I took part in training new
By FatsoPilotI took part in training new pilots who would soon become airline pilots at 220 hours (I cannot remember the exact part 141 hour requirements but it was less than 250). Many of these people had no business in the cockpit of a Cessna, I cringe at thinking of them flying around in their home country with 200 passengers on board. If the company picked them or if their parent's had the money, they would finish the training. They would go home with very few solo hours and without making any real decisions on their own. This should not be the direction we go.
I worked for two major
By AnonymousI worked for two major International Airlines in a number of capacities including that of CRM instructor at our pilot training center. I have been a GA pilot for twenty years. As a CFI/AGI, I teach Private Pilot Ground School at the local JC to a mix of students of all ages. Generally, the mature ones (40+) want to fly for pleasure and can afford to do so having established careers. The younger students are considering careers but when they explore the cost and training opportunities – a lot of FBO’s are struggling – many find the obstacles insurmountable.
A good percentage of professional pilots start their careers flying SEL airplanes at local airports. The structure and financing of such training has to be addressed. An example is the Knowledge test. This test is becoming increasingly outdated and requires the teaching and learning of material that will never be used in the real world, e.g., eighteen questions on NDB/ADF – four on GPS; weather charts in a format that bears little or no resemblance to any currently available on computer; an emphasis on encoded weather information and nothing on other sources of weather information; nothing glass cockpits displays. According to Gleim, the FAA currently has no plans to update the knowledge test.
Addressing safety issues by mandating FOs meet Part 121 standards in flight hours, may or may not be the answer (see previous posts) but the process of developing, safe professional pilots starts at the Part 61/91 level.
that's absolutely silly. No,
By Anonymousthat's absolutely silly.
No, that will never happen
As a young grad and an
By AnonymousAs a young grad and an aeroplanes fan, I have considered investing time and money into a pilot's training program. Flying a jet has always appeared very sexy to me.
Only times are changing and I have had to go through some number crunching and assessing the pilots' market. Well, I have had to come to the conclusion this is a foolish investment, if not suicidal ! In today's world you just cannot retrieve any sort of return on investment. And even if you're lucky enough to make that return on investment, you'll have to live a miserable life made of commuting, long hours, temp contracts, paying back extra money for the airline's specific needs in terms of type ratings - that should be their responsibility as it is their choice to operate such or such type of airplane - (that is money to get hired which is sick !!! No company in no other field would dare consider having people pay for their own training). By the age of the 30, you're the only poor sod among your friends who doesn't own a house. By the age, of 40, you're still struggling while all you mates are well settled with nice houses, cars, family, etc...
This career is doomed. The difficulty/gains ratio is really poor, not mentionning how challenging this job can be. Being romantic is not sufficient anymore, this world has become way to harsh to live on water and love.
Today, I'm glad I did not join this madness and I'm not an extra piece of meat for all those ruthless operators. I won't be playing that losing game. Instead, I'm already making good money and I still have time to fly a nice SR22. Lovely !
I fly the Dash 8. I recently
By Aviator AussieI fly the Dash 8.
I recently tried in the simulator to replicate the infamous Colgan Q400 Captains control inputs leading to the deaths of so many people. You know what happened? At 600 feet, I let go of the controls and it flew itself out of the deep stall I had placed it in. If only Mr Renslow had just let go and sat back, asking his FO with the head cold to do the same and not get involved.
The sickening thing in this is that the guy had only a couple of hundred hours on type and yet he had a command! It is irrelevant who was in the right seat that night in Buffalo.
The Multi crew Pilot licence crowd is now saying that flight hours aren't important. Give me a break. I had over 3000 hours on TYPE before I got my command.
But at the end of the day, if Joe Public wants a $29 fare, thats what he gets. He also reaps what he sows.
2 Points: 1-I realize that
By Anonymous2 Points:
1-I realize that 1500 hrs is not some magic number at which one suddenly reaches aviation nirvana and is ready to fly an airliner. I do believe that in the course of flying that many hours, particularly while instructing, one is going to be exposed to enough situations that require skill, judgement, and quick decision making in order to save one's hide. No simulator can do that. While instructing I had students try to kill me, experienced a real engine failure, real wind shear, ATC errors, etc. Scared myself several times but learned one hell of a lot. Then, flying night 135 freight I really used those skills (and learned others). By the time I flew my first 121 passenger I knew so much more than I had at 1000 hrs. - most of it learned through real world experience rather than "book learnin".
2-Safety at regionals vs majors. I've been at 3 of each. Unfortunately to John Q Public, as long as a flight gets from A to B without crashing, it is deemed "safe". Regardless of how many close calls may have occurred enroute or how many levels of redundancy were utilized to keep the aircraft "safe". The FAA seems to feel the same way with the added factor that they like neat and orderly paperwork as well.
In reality there is nothing inherently "safe" about riding thru the stratosphere at 550 mph in a pressurized metal tube. We have made flying safe thru mulitple layers of "safety nets", checks and redundancies. This is true in terms of aircraft design, flight operations procedures and training.
I can tell you that in my experience, at the regional airlines I flew for, we routine relied on "safety nets" to catch errors and save the day. Illegal dispatch releases (fuel errors, no alternate when one was required, incorrect application of MEL restrictions) were the order of the day. Broken airplanes, long exhausting days followed by scheduled reduced rest overnights, and pressure to fly no matter what were ever present. Despite these factors, thanks to a great group of aviators and a robust systerm, most flights got from A to B in one piece.
At the 3 majors I have flown for, relying on a backup or finding a significant problem with equipment was immediate cause for concern and mandated a report. Rarely were MELs carried anywhere near the legal limits. Dispatch was 99% on the ball and in fact was more conservative than legally required in terms of fuel and alternate plannning. Schedules (although not always perfect) were light years better than those at the regionals. At my present company I can finish a 4 day and hit the road running rather than needed a day and half just to recover.
So statistics about how many planes have crashed and how many flights sucessfully completed do not reflect a true measure of "safety". I would argue that as more flying has shifted from the legacy carriers and "reputable" regionals that tried to do a better job (like Comair, Skywest, one of my old companies ACA) to bottom feeder (cheap$$) regionals, the actual level of risk to which the public is exposed has gone up. It is just that we have built such a strong system of "safety" that disaster is averted.
Aviator Aussie, Most
By AnonymousAviator Aussie,
Most simulators don't accurately replicate deep stall. The software in the simulator is derived from a small amount of measured aircraft data which is then extrapolated into the corners of the flight envelope. Anything at the edge, or outside the normal flight envelope is simply a guess by the simulator.
The multi crew pilot license
By AnonymousThe multi crew pilot license of the Eurozone has nothing to do with better training and improved safety. It is a market response to lack of self sponsored labour, allowing airlines to train new pilots on the cheap. Why are young Europeans not learning to fly? The initial expense involved and the fact that there is very little opportunity (as exists in the USA via instruction/charter/freight etc) of building your experience to meet the requirements of employment at a local airline.
Alternatively, many quality airlines still do apprentice their young pilots as second officers or cruise first officers after they have obtained full licenses. They sit the equivalent of side saddle for 5 plus years observing operations and undertaking ongoing simulator training. They are not all going straight to the right seat of a widebody as some allude. This shows that quality airlines understand that there is no short cut to safety and that experience must be accrued akin to the traditional means. Well, actually, they primarily do it for legaltiy purposes, commercially speaking any good capitalist would rather see the back of an expense.
Ultimately I feel that when you buy a cheap ticket you need to ask were the money has been saved? Most likely the pilots salary nor safety is a consideration when you click the mouse button (its perhaps mistakenly taken for granted). You could argue that there is no correlation between ticket prices, pilot salaries and safety. Southwest being the best example of this (cheapest ticket getting you the highest paid labour). What should one conclude from this? That the other major airline managment teams in the USA are doing a really bad job (being unable to competatively pay their employees whilst keeping ticket prices low)?
Maybe safety at other regional/major airlines is affected by the woeful moral. A USA based airline CEO is qouted as saying moral is not of his concern. What kind of leadership example is that? I'm glad he isn't sitting in the cockpit of the plane I am riding on.
Having been through both
By Mil PilotHaving been through both types of training, namely a 4-year college degree flying program, followed by military flight training, I can say that the training question is indeed relevant. Military flying training is extremely rigorous,demanding, and stressful. By the end of that initial 55-week training program, I was definitely a more competent pilot, even after 10 years of civilian flying and being a CFII. Hours don't equal competence. Thorough training does.
Several sources mention the trickle of military pilots going into the airlines. No kidding! We all look at the current pay situation and ask, are they joking?! We would start over in poverty, and it would take 10 to 15 years to return to our current income level. The website "WillFlyForFood.com" is an apt moniker. It's also very sad.
YOU are ridiculous sir, as is
By AnonymousYOU are ridiculous sir, as is the assanine concept of a 240 hr pilot in a Boeing or Airbus. These "cadets" that "make the cut" of an ab-initio program dont have the right stuff or smarts per se, they have the right CONNECTIONS, and MONEY. Almost 100k to get into the ab-initio program for BA and ALL these guys I met (here in PHX) were sons or nephews of company pilots. They are accidents waiting to happen, (Read much about the Turkish 737 into AMS recently?) They allowed the autothrottles to close, (RA malfunction) and WATCHED a perfectly good 737 autopilot try to hold the glideslope, then stall, then crash. YOU NEED EXPERIENCE, in real time, over years to be a safe airline pilot, no matter how fancy you make the simulators. I have alot to say about this as I have flown with ALL types as a Captain and F/O.
A320 First Officer, Boeing 757/767 type rating, Beech 1900 and EMB145 typed Captain.
I am actually surprised that
By AnonymousI am actually surprised that so many people think that military pilots are better than civilian pilots. I am a 22 yr captain on the B737NG for a major US carrier. If I take the typical 42 year old civilian copilot with 10,000 hrs of mostly regional flying (in all weather airline environments) and compare him to a 42 yr old (retired) military pilot with 5,000 hours of mostly vfr training flights, the civilian guy wins hands down. The military guys typically have worse CRM skills and rough flying skills yet have all the ego. If you take these same pilots at age 25, fairly fresh out of training the military guy wins, but down the line the civilian guys get more real life, heavy weather experience. Civilian pilots make up 75% of airline crews now-a-days and airline safety has actually exponentially been better over the last decade because of it!
The new regional pilots are
By AnonymousThe new regional pilots are being starved both as regards pay and peer mentoring. And the major airlines are directly responsible for this, since the regional feeder system was set up in order to increase their own profits. So what we have is profitability for the majors at the price of poor training, poor pay, and lives lost in unnecessary crashes...
1) Force major airlines to do
By Anonymous1) Force major airlines to do their own regional operations using their own planes and pilots (outsourcing to others absolutely prohibited.)
2) Mandate a guaranteed minimum $30,000 (perhaps more) starting salary for regional pilots.
3) Lower the forced retirement age of older pilots or else pay them less (yeah right, good luck with that one!) to provide better incentive (pay) and training (including flying with more experienced pilots) in order to have better opportunities for new pilots.
4) After forcing majors to do their own regional operations, require paying all pilots the same amount based on flight hours regardless of what aircraft they are flying.
What airline is it? Are
By AnonymousWhat airline is it? Are there pilots above you in seniority that make alot more? Just wondering.
Sorry, the previous comment
By AnonymousSorry, the previous comment was meant to be a reply to the guy who has worked for a major airline for 5 years and makes $38K.
I heard also that, when the
By Captain KirkI heard also that, when the captain pulled instead of pushed in response to the stall, inexplicably, the fo raised the flaps.
"Sorry, the previous comment
By Anonymous"Sorry, the previous comment was meant to be a reply to the guy who has worked for a major airline for 5 years and makes $38K."
Probably a stagnant regional carrier like Horizon, American Eagle, Comair, etc where the most junior Captain can be 8-10yrs seniority.
This article touches on very
By AnonymousThis article touches on very good points regarding the future of the industry; however the fatigue issue in the Colgan crash was not stressed enough.
The crew possibly would have reacted different if they were well rested. This ties into the pay issue also. A commuter would be more likely to get a hotel room the night before reporting for duty if he/she made enough money to afford the hotel room. Also the 16 hour duty day is ridiculous and unsafe. After about 12 hours of duty it is obvious that mental perfomance is lacking. Something needs to be done to the duty/rest requirements ASAP.
Having flown with many
By Capt. FarquharHaving flown with many 200/300 hour f/o's while flying in Europe, I found the quality varied enormously. Some are great and could be relied upon and others were a liability. The problem is clearly stated in the article: More over 60 pilots than under 40 ones. Clear the log jam at the top and get things moving in the lower ranks. The airline I now fly with has it's oldest pilot at 72! Time to retire gentlemen.
Definitely we will see within
By Peter SwiftDefinitely we will see within the next 10 to 15 years use of drone technology to slowly take the pilot out of the loop. First will be cargo carriers. Boxes really do not care who or what is flying them....! Once the technology has been proved, it will slowly filter down to a single pilot on a commercial transport aircraft who will be there for emergency purposes only.
One item not really discussed in this forum on pilot pay and who wants to be a pilot anymore is the old, antiquated custom of seniority. In most careers, you are recognized for your training, knowledge gained over the years and experience and have the ability to move within your profession from company to company and move up the pay ladder. Not so with pilots. You can spend 15 years with an airline gaining experience, training and qualifications, but should they lay you off, your experience counts for nothing. Go to another carrier and start at the bottom rung - again. Why would any young, intelligent, motivated person want to take this gamble? Operating an airline is a very expensive undertaking and only became a viable business with the support of the US Postal Service in the US and national governments in most other countries. Now that most of this support has gone, the airlines must operate to the demands of the stock holders and have 2 major cost burdens to get under control; fuel and labor. Fuel is not under their control and will only go one way - up. Labor however is fully under their control. So as long as the airlines are in a daily duel with each other to fill that airline seat, prices will stay low and keep wages low as well.
Interesting to see the
By Management, Maintainer, PilotInteresting to see the differing opinions on the topic. My two cents from the last 25 years in the airline industry is recount the old saying "All that is necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing". Yes, management as a whole pushes for the least amount of expense to gain the most amount of profit. But not all management. Good individuals believe in a balance that works. Yes, pilots today do not have a glamorous job, work long hours, spend time away from family. Still not an excuse to have accumulated thousands of hours without constantly striving to improve performance. Many pilots put in the extra effort regardless of the poor environment provided to work within. Those that do not should not be allowed to progress: not by management and not by their peers. During WWII, men with a lot less training flew equipment with a lot less capability in a much more hostile environment with less sleep and further away from home. Those that did not perform were held to the fire by their peers and supervisors because the price for poor performance was too great. The same can be said for todays current military pilots. I'm not saying commercial pilots should have to perform like they are in combat but the stakes for poor performance are great. Silently, on each side, management and pilot, there are those who know what needs to be done to improve this situation. It's time to speak up and stop being the silent majority. If you don't, this situation will only get worse as those less informed will speak up and make decisions that affect the industry and those who use it for years to come.
Airlines don't need to worry
By MauricioAirlines don't need to worry about lack of pilots now or in the future. Once it becomes critical, because no one in the us can afford to be one, airlines will go to the congress to have them pass a law to allow foreigners to come to the us under a special (H1-B?) visa and work. We have that already in the IT/Engineering fields. For management a pilot is a pilot is a pilot. If he/she is cheap they could care less.
I've been an airline pilot
By AnonymousI've been an airline pilot for 21 years (11 years at a regional and 10 years at a major), and have flown with pilots from all different backgrounds. I think that quality and quantity of training are both very important, and relevant to this discussion. Fatigue caused by the pitiful FARs, which result in abusive schedules, is also very relevant to this discussion.
I've flown with some very competent and very incompetent pilots from both military and civilian backgrounds. Quality and quantity of training and experience, as well as level of fatigue, all have a significant impact on pilot performance.
The proposal to require all airline pilots to have an ATP is a step in the right direction (and should be passed by Congress and/or the FAA). Additionally, the ATP written exam and checkride requirements need to be more thorough and better reflect today's operating environment.
Regional airline management will be forced to raise pilot pay, if they are only allowed to hire pilots with ATPs. This should be seen as a good thing, to all of you aspiring airline pilots. Wouldn't you rather instruct, fly cargo, corporate, etc. for an extra year or so, at an average salary of $25-45k, and then be hired at a regional under the new regs (if they pass), that will be forced by supply and demand economics to pay you at least $30-35k? That sounds a lot better to me, than rushing over to some regional gig under the current regs, with 250-1000 hours and no ATP, and being paid $15-20k.
The passengers might have to pay an extra $2./flight to cover the higher salaries, but they'll have a more experienced and competent crew. The pilots will be paid a decent salary, that will allow them to either move to their expensive, big city base, or commute, and actually be able to afford a quiet place to sleep and take a shower before going to work.
I think that Congress and the FAA got it right with the ATP proposal that's on the table (don't forget that the proposal does wisely include flight hour credits for proof of quality training, allowing an ATP to be granted with approximately 1000 hours).
And bankrupt your airline.
By Comm SE ME InstAnd bankrupt your airline. Well done.
Paying pilots at the
By AnonymousPaying pilots at the regionals a living wage is not going to bankrupt the airlines. The proposed regulations will obviously apply to all airlines, so they will all have to raise their fares equally to cover the higher salaries. A $1 or $2 fare increase is not going to reduce overall load factors.
I know many of you aspiring pilots are anxious to land your first airline gig, and 1000-1500 hours seems like an unatainable goal. Trust me...your salary and quality of life are probably better at your charter, corporate, cargo or instructing gig. Stay put for an extra year or two... get yourself an ATP... and then come to a regional airline that will be forced to pay you a decent salary (if they are forced by these wisely proposed regs, to only hire pilots with ATPs).
My local city is
By GoldensLeddyMy local city is Rostov-on-Don. It is the property of the Don area. It was founded in 1749. It is situated on the upright bank of the river Don. In the nearby Rostov was a small metropolis with selfish population. But second the sector of Rostov-on-Don is 380 cubic kilometres and the inhabitants is more than harmonious million people. Our burgh is a hulking industrial, well-ordered and cultural mid-point in the South of Russia. The spy "Rostselmash" is known not barely in our mother country but abroad as well. The largest scientific and enlightening inauguration is the Rostov Glory University, which was founded in 1915 and any more has more then ten faculties. In Rostov there are four theatres: Gorky Drama The boards, Musical Comedy, Patsy Tell, Theatre of Young Spectators.
The Gorky Histrionics is surrounded by way of a great park named after the October Revolution. It is the same of many parks and gardens which make Rostov a green town and where Rostovites like to walk on a close cloudless day.
During the Second The public Struggling Rostov-on-Don was occupied twice (1941 and 1942). The against expense Rostovites enormous losses of life. That is why in the municipality there are a oceans of monuments faithful to the in disagreement years and to people who gave their lives as a replacement for our serene life.
Rostov-on-Don is a burly transmit centre. It is not alone a charitable tether of railways and airways but it is also the port of five seas (the Baltic, the Ghostly, the Caspian, the Ebony and the Swell of Asov). Nowadays Rostov-on-Don is undergoing profound trade vacillate turn into, as sundry other cities and villages in Russia . Factories and plants can not quite open to in conditions of rapt solvent crisis. But we dialect expect that in some years people will be expert to prevail over all the difficulties and Rostov-on-Don will hold its place as in unison of the biggest industrial cities of Russia.
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