Afriqiyah crash investigation focusing on faulty landing aids, sunlight

With the accuracy of GPS this modern, less than 1 year old, A330-202 had all the navigation equipment to prevent just such an incident. Landing with poor VOR signals or no VOR signal should have been non-eventful due to the accuracy of the nav system installed. With GPS and the FMS database the crew had all the tools to accurately display their position. We land into the sun daily and do not crash new aircraft. Let's see what the Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder's have to show us.

With such a modern equipment, why not use LNAV VNAV approach ...???

If still receiving a VOR and DME signal, degraded or not, the system will not shift to IRS only. And if it does shift to IRS only, how far have the IRS's drifted from alignment 7 to 8 hours before? Does the airport have more than one VOR in the area that could have updated the FMC satisfactorily enough for an adequate LNAV backup? VNAV would be out of the question if the LNAV didn't have an accurate location as to where the A/C actually was.

The Airbus is GPS primary not IRS. As far as the "speed indicators" they have all been changed. Please stop speculating if you don't have the facts straight or understand the aircraft systems or what it feels like to be fatigued in an aircraft. If you doubt me ask FDX what I mean (B727 in TLH). By the way, I'm not partial to Airbus or Boeing, just for the record.

Having landed on that runway dozens of times, one hopes that at least this terrible accident will lead to an upgrading of Tripoli's outdated NDB equipment, often unfuntioning VOR and ILS (on opposite runway), as well as poor ATC and sometimes unreliable met reports.

A colleague was once given "wind is calm from the north"! Another was cleared for an ILS that was notamed as unservisable "because everyone is using it and it seems OK"

Mike, what qualifications do you hold that allow you to so clearly state the cause of the crash, when the official investigation, assisted by experts, has barely begun ?

I have only seen the pictures from TV news, but I haven't seen much fire damage, did he ran out of fuel?

Aside of the causes of this tragic accident, I am most stuned by two observations from far abroad:

1) The degree of desintegration of the wreckage and
2) the lack of credible witness reports from the ground.

Even at 6AM someone must have observed the approach, if not ATC than some of the folks around, a few it may be.

How can such a severe impact occur at an (assumed) angle of decent close to normal ,and an estimated approach speed of around 200mph?

Even a sudden explosion could not have caused the degree of obvious destruction, from nose to tail and wingtips. How has this 8-year old boy survived this tragedy almost unharmed?

And at last but not least: How reliable are the sources of information given in a heavily censored enviroment such as Lybia?

Some serious questions from an non.professional abroad.

Having flown both the B767 and the A330, one cannot compare them. The A330 has GPS updating and the position is very accurate. Drifting of the position is not an issue.

Ik vind het zo erg jammer voor al deze Hollanders die omgekomen zijn en voor hun familieleden. Gelukkig voor Ruben. Moge al deze zielen in vrede rusten an moge hun familieleden veel kracht hebben om dit verdriet te verdragen.

u pilots do mistakes, killing people and always have someone to blame. ATC in all over the world have never been involved in a fatal crash, but always to blame

This is the question .

i agree with you. we land in all kind of conditions, during sun rise at night, i even landed once with the light of the runway off, due to sudden failure of the standby power-supply of the airport we where landing in. the navigation equipment available have been more than proper.
most probably the pilot was inexperienced.
the a 330 is a very sophisticated aircraft, and if properly trained with enough experience, flying it, is a piece of cake (relatively spoken)

Lack of situational awareness, no excuses, just go around. I see it in the sim all the time. Crews ust won't go around.

I find it very rude and inconsiderate to state with such sureness that the pilots must have been inexperienced. Maybe you should wait and give the late gentleman benefit of the doubt!

Ref Mike's first comment.
I'm typed on all Boeings from the B707/720 through the 767. Also DC-9s and DC-10s. Never flew an airplane with its airspeed indicators on the outside of the aircraft, and have never heard a pilot describe a pitot system as an airspeed indicator. LET THE INVESTIGATORS MAKE THE DETERMINATION.

it is a big tragedy for the country & the carrier as well as the families of the lost ones. It is very prudent to await the result of official investigation. Not being biased Libyal pilots are extremely capable & are all graduates of western aviations schools (UK, USA & France) & I do not feel it is fair to dismiss the pilot of the crashed Afriqiyah A 330 that easily.

Here is my theory - Direction of flight was away from runway 09, not toward it. The aircraft had an upset / departure from controlled flight for whatever reason, perhaps technical, perhaps trying to lose excess speed and altitude, and the wings were pulled off in the attempted recovery. The wings hit the ground first in the line of debris, the fuselage disintegrated along the original flight path, and the tail section fluttered to the ground.

What a tragic loss of life. God help friends and loved ones of the victims. Some of the posts on here are ridiculous though. Engineer, since when did an engine flame out lead to loss of landing configuration? Do you even know what landing configuration means? You dont sound so Engineer-ish to me. Tripoli has a history of unreliable met reports, unserviceable landing aids, poor ATC epecially English challenged ATC, the list is endless. As for fatigue, most Airline SOP's call for relief crews on flights longer than 8 hours to ensure well rested crews on each sector of a flight. An aircraft running out of fuel, the pilots have to declare an emergency if they tap into their reserves which is atleast 30 minutes flight time depending on planning. Speculation is human nature but some speculations are plain ignorant. I'm not an accident investigator, I just fly. Let the professionals do their job and tell us what went wrong, then we can learn one more thing to help avoid disaster.

Sorry it was a B737

The laws of physics and aerodynamics overrule Airbus laws.

The only explanation for the wings being on the ground in a neat "V" over 800 meters from most of the wreckage, which is in very small scattered pieces, is that the wings separated in flight. If you can offer another explanation, please do. The wings could not tumble on the ground that far, and if they tumbled, or were thrown by the impact, how could they end up close together in a "V"? If this is not explained by the Libyans, then we will have to be very skeptical of everything they report.

Honestly I would rather wait for the investigation to be complete, but some interesting observations....
I would not dispute the credentials or experience of the crew. Experience is also relative... many years flying in an ATC environment and adhering to Standard Operating Procedures, or many years flying VFR in the desert or a combination of either. One's mentality and decision making has to be applied along with one's experience and as noted, fatigue could also play a factor. I know from experience that regulations such as flight and duty time limitations are seldom followed in certain (ahem !) parts of the world and it is for the local authorities to check up and ensure operators are adhering (providing they can do anything about it if the owners or major investors have political clout or influence).
Next, I think everyone agrees this was an unusual accident for an approach, with the degree of disintegration screaming "surprised by the ground" !
One other Afriqiyah flight apparently executed a missed approach when no visual reference was realized and diverted to alternate airport. The VOR/DME approach to Tripoli has a minimum descent altitude of 640' with the missed approach point being at 0.6 DME. So what is this aircraft doing flying into the ground on an IFR approach 3 miles from the threshold IF everything was working ? Procedure is procedure. Scud running a Twin otter or a light twin in marginal VFR conditions is one thing... now as for an A330....
Well, just a thought. Waiting to hear what the investigators find.

I think they were just having a rough day. The sunlight could have been a factor, reducing visibility and producing the false impression that the runway was close by. Their instruments could have shown that the runway was further away, but all airline pilots are trained to trust their instincts over the aircraft's instruments. There have been many accidents where instruments gave false readings causing over-trusting pilots to crash their planes.

I flew on that very aircraft on that very route and landed at that very time the flight before. I tried to contact the carrier to inform them of concerns I had whilst on that flight, to no avail...There was constant problems with the interior lights, tv monitors and more...I remember the cabin crew very well they were very professional and took care of me and my family very well indeed.May they rest in Peace.